Sadly, probably not illegal. Persons who are in their probationary period can be terminated for any reason as long as the underlying basis is not discriminatory in nature.
My old friend, the renowned employment attorney, Mike Apicello. Not illegal. Excruciating and harsh but we elected our President to reform our government and he is. No surprises for people who weren’t watching MSNBC. 92 percent of federal workers in Washington DC are pro Harris. 47 is moving with astonishing speed to neutralize agencies that would resist coming changes. He learned the hard way in 2017-2020, then planned and prepared through 2021-2024. The unelected and entitled bureaucracy reports only to itself unless it can be shattered, shuttered, then reopened under new management. It’s a tough ride but folks will land safely.
Change the channel. The Oresident isn’t throwing rocks or Molotov cocktails. He’s doing what Newsom and Walz said they wish they’d done in 2020 three days earlier before the rioters barricaded federal buildings and tried to set them on fire with the officers trapped inside.
I imagine if this was happening to you at NIFC you’d have welcomed the protection. Timing and circumstances are everything.
I remember you often confused positive progressive action with bullshit. You were content to show up to the office and watch the world spin by. I asked you once if you forgot to retire. You assured me you had not forgotten, that you still had many positive years to offer the agency. I was surprised thinking you had retired in place years before. Like many of your compatriots, you’ve neither listed your specific complaints about your President (beyond Orange Man Bad) or identified a candidate you think would do a better job ( beyond anybody but Trump).when I read your occasional comments from outside the press of current affairs I wonder what specific Democrat policies you support. I’m hoping John Fetterman runs for President. I think he’d be wonderful. Who’s your pick for 2036, the next time a Democrat has a shot at winning. Go back to sleep. You positively shine at being inert.
Using the term “reduction in force” implies that they are following some kind of personnel process in which peoples work histories and seniority is considered. They are not doing that. they are using a meat cleaver.
Yup. As if we need further evidence of this, just look at what they did regarding the nuclear weapons program. It was a huge "oops" by Musk who did not realize WHAT THEY DO and now has to rehire them, but oops again, he cannot find them all.
This is just nuts and I don't care what agency one is involved in, it will not turn out well for the country. Many of the most knowledgeable people are retiring (creating a void in institutional knowledge) not to mention agency capability.
Correct you are. The reason probationary positions are some of the highest and first targets is the lack of ability for the firing to be challenged. NO CONSIDERATION for the importance of the work, the performance of the employee, or the benefit to the agency - So much for the importance of a "Merit Based System" one can't go two minutes without hearing about.
Hey Tim, keep doing what you, let the haters hate. Some of the new Intel I got is they are going after folks on PIP's for the next round. All of our SRFF' that are on probation still have their jobs and everything with seasonals is still on track, in case any seasonals or potential perms are wondering you probably won't see your drug test till 30 days before your start date. I haven't heard of any stop to AD stuff unless it's defacto because your trying to bring someone on before an official start date. As far as teams go there will be an effect but I'm not sure how big. I feel the majority of overhead is primarily fire and AD's anyways. Plus with the CIMT stuff taking over their rosters are much smaller than the type 1's & 2's and expand with phone calls to fire bros to help out. To anyone that wants to listen, don't get emotional, be tactical. Recognize what you can control and what you can't. For the boots on the ground like myself. Stay in touch with your seasonals coming on, get your critical 80 dialed in, organize your PT program, dial in your gear and equipment, get the fire supplies you need, and keep your folks busy. USFS R3
Thanks for your information sharing. I find out Tuesday if I get axed. I'm not in fire anymore, I can retire in 2029 with 30 years at age 57.....so hopefully I keep my job at the BLM until then, I didn't take the fork option.
Chaos, dysfunction and destruction of morale - This is the predictable result of having people who hate "government" and resent civil service put in control of both.
We all recognize the need of reforms and desire more efficiency in our modern systems - In many areas, not just the U.S. Government... But these single minded, often illegal actions, and the wrecking crew approach on display have little or nothing to do with those aims/goals.
Effency ?? - This looks much more about dismantling services and the constructs of collective government to me. - By reducing the abilities of Federal Agencies to perform the work and duties that make it reliable and legitimate to the average citizen - They are enabling the true End Game. Which is concentrating even more power, wealth and control into the hands of the very few.
This is evidenced in the near complete absence or discussion by Mascot Musk concerning "What's Next"... Ruining, dismantling, or wreaking something is always easier then the rebuilding or making something better. The lack of transparency or announced plans about this second half of the equation speaks clearly to the motivations of the actions being witnessed these last several weeks.
There will be hundreds of fewer FF and overhead personnel available for fire assignments this season becauseoftheRIFs. We were critically short of workers last year. I foresee turn-downs from IMT'S for assignments due to staffing shortfalls
ADs are the most efficient of all. Essentially contractors. Utilize, send home. No pensions, no healthcare, none of that. Only thing required is admin support to keep them in the system. My forest that's two people, once a year paperwork push.
With all the government waist DOGE is finding you would think they could put it towards government workers. Sounds like you at one point had Elon’s ear 👂 perhaps you could convey this to him. I would hope republicans can grow a spine and stand up for this nonsense. Congress wrote the bills to enact these land management agencies. Musk and Trump should not be allowed to fire them.
“Put the bottle down, get the heart rate up…” Heart rate is essential in overcoming negative coping. Hard times. We gotta get through it together. Thanks Hotshot Wake Up for clear, unbiased information. Thanks firefighters for your clear thinking and strength. We’re gonna need a lot more of it. How do people contact your brother if they want support?
Ill have to double check but pretty sure fed dispatchers are primary fire, they have to be fire qualified with some other classes but no pack test requirement. Perms work year round, AD's boost them in the summer. Hope that kinda answers your question. Primary fire is primary fire, time of year doesn't matter. USFS R3
I hate it when management says they can't get rid of someone. That's just poor management. If there's truly an issue, document it, then train/develop/PIP/discipline/terminate as appropriate. Saying there's nothing only option is to put it the performance appraisal is just lazy management. There's a process in place. People in leadership positions that are managers and not leaders are just afraid to be the bearer of bad news or don't want to be the "bad guy". If you want the supervisors pay rate, then you have to do the work, good and bad.
I'm a Captain with the FS in R3. Your right in some of what you say but it's also not that simple, I wish it was. Management doesn't do the legwork, crew supervisors do.Train/develop yes, PIP/discipline, all that stuff has to go through a 3rd party which is ER that guides you, all why trying to run the crew.Termination... management makes the final call and it's harder when their off probation. Is it performance or conduct? Can you measure the performance? Documentation is more than notes on a piece of paper, I think most folks would be surprised. 10% of your employees can take up 90% of your time and that's fact. Crew supervisors have to find the balance to keep the crew functioning by handling issues at the lowest level. Aglearn doesn't teach you these small things as a new supervisor, you end up learning the hard way. And believe me we have a lot of new supervisors in R3. And yes if experienced supervisors aren't handling poor performance or conduct they are not doing their job. I just want to share knowledge because I think there are some non fire folks that read these threads and articles.
In the Armed forces, during the numerous post-war draw downs, it's called "RIF." IE: "You got "Rif'd." This is old lore in the armed forces, and no, there wasn't careful consideration, they got hundreds of thousands off the books because massive budget cuts were incoming...whack, just like that.
If you had friends, they would find you a place to hide out. (ROTC was a big one) But those billets were few.
At the root of this is the $32 TRILLION debt bomb ticking, and 20 something nations signing up to abandon the petro-dollar via BRICS.....that's a civilization killer. The 90s and the 2000s there were plenty of examples. Some of those nations that experienced default are only now coming out of it, some never really will in our lifetime.
You can't imagine the deadly shit show that that brings unless you've seen it first hand...deadly. So yea, strategically there's a a fire in the paint locker and it's general quarters time in the strategic finance dept.
Americans living didn't experience anything like that, nor did they notice because it wasn't part of their reality.
Well, welcome to reality. It sucks, and lots of people we love and care about are getting hit. But there it is.
And yes, there's going to be some chaos that goes with it, but what major shift hasn't involved that?
What we are seeing currently is about REDIRECTING spending - Not REDUCING it. The US debt is projected to grow once again in 2025. And each year through at least 2035. Both overall debt, debt held by the public, and as a % of GDP.
The "savings" from gutting the federal workforce and eliminating agencies, services, reducing 'fraud" and gaining "efficiency" is all slated to go elsewhere in the proposed budget due in March.... Tax Breaks (a huge percentage to the wealthy and large corporations) - mass deportation efforts - private prisons - the national security state and a shift to contacts that privatize federal services for profit.
The priorities being set are a legitimate debate - but the Intent of "DOGE" actions are pretty clear.
Here's a clue. Elon Musk's personal wealth has increased by $115 BILLION DOLLARS since election day. And you can bet the $400,000,000 Million dollar contact recently made final by the State Dept for Tesla armored trucks WILL NOT be part of ANY audit. (except to scrub the names from the contract, which has already happened)
Good quip and point taken - there are enough numb-skills running the show without adding me. didn't mean to sound holy/holy....Besides, I'm busy helping friends trying to understand if they have a job or not from week to week - so I'm booked full time.
These are illegal firings being conducted in a cloak of darkness, chaos and confusion.
The Forest Service has gone through legitimate downsizing in the past.
This is different.
Gestapo tactics always backfire.
Sadly, with devastating unintended consequences.
Sadly, probably not illegal. Persons who are in their probationary period can be terminated for any reason as long as the underlying basis is not discriminatory in nature.
My old friend, the renowned employment attorney, Mike Apicello. Not illegal. Excruciating and harsh but we elected our President to reform our government and he is. No surprises for people who weren’t watching MSNBC. 92 percent of federal workers in Washington DC are pro Harris. 47 is moving with astonishing speed to neutralize agencies that would resist coming changes. He learned the hard way in 2017-2020, then planned and prepared through 2021-2024. The unelected and entitled bureaucracy reports only to itself unless it can be shattered, shuttered, then reopened under new management. It’s a tough ride but folks will land safely.
How can anyone with any moral compass support the blatant corruption of this president.
It’s now the end of May.
Just wait a couple of months.
Let’s see what happens.
So, it’s June 10.
And we see more illegal crap going on in California with the National Guard and Marines.
How can anyone support the illegal actions of this incompetent clown president and his corrupt administration.
I wouldn’t fight fire with any of these people on my fire crews, my jump crews, or any IMT.
trump is going to kill people, all for his bogus photo ops and to prove he is not a bombastic, ego-driven coward.
Good leaders don’t hurt people or get people killed unnecessarily.
Change the channel. The Oresident isn’t throwing rocks or Molotov cocktails. He’s doing what Newsom and Walz said they wish they’d done in 2020 three days earlier before the rioters barricaded federal buildings and tried to set them on fire with the officers trapped inside.
I imagine if this was happening to you at NIFC you’d have welcomed the protection. Timing and circumstances are everything.
You hiding behind an alias, or did your ego deflate because of your persistent bullshit.
At NIFC we eliminated the invasive threats. Don’t you remember?
Grow up.
I remember you often confused positive progressive action with bullshit. You were content to show up to the office and watch the world spin by. I asked you once if you forgot to retire. You assured me you had not forgotten, that you still had many positive years to offer the agency. I was surprised thinking you had retired in place years before. Like many of your compatriots, you’ve neither listed your specific complaints about your President (beyond Orange Man Bad) or identified a candidate you think would do a better job ( beyond anybody but Trump).when I read your occasional comments from outside the press of current affairs I wonder what specific Democrat policies you support. I’m hoping John Fetterman runs for President. I think he’d be wonderful. Who’s your pick for 2036, the next time a Democrat has a shot at winning. Go back to sleep. You positively shine at being inert.
If this is who I think it is - man are you fucked up. You are an asshole still.
If you want to attack my reputation in a public forum - do it to my face.
You make generalizations out your ass.
Your a fucking coward.
If you want to get nasty do it to my face. Otherwise fuck off.
You were always considered a failure and a nuisance by many people. Your legacy is shit and you know it.
People laughed at you then and they still do now
Using the term “reduction in force” implies that they are following some kind of personnel process in which peoples work histories and seniority is considered. They are not doing that. they are using a meat cleaver.
Yup. As if we need further evidence of this, just look at what they did regarding the nuclear weapons program. It was a huge "oops" by Musk who did not realize WHAT THEY DO and now has to rehire them, but oops again, he cannot find them all.
This is just nuts and I don't care what agency one is involved in, it will not turn out well for the country. Many of the most knowledgeable people are retiring (creating a void in institutional knowledge) not to mention agency capability.
Correct you are. The reason probationary positions are some of the highest and first targets is the lack of ability for the firing to be challenged. NO CONSIDERATION for the importance of the work, the performance of the employee, or the benefit to the agency - So much for the importance of a "Merit Based System" one can't go two minutes without hearing about.
Hey Tim, keep doing what you, let the haters hate. Some of the new Intel I got is they are going after folks on PIP's for the next round. All of our SRFF' that are on probation still have their jobs and everything with seasonals is still on track, in case any seasonals or potential perms are wondering you probably won't see your drug test till 30 days before your start date. I haven't heard of any stop to AD stuff unless it's defacto because your trying to bring someone on before an official start date. As far as teams go there will be an effect but I'm not sure how big. I feel the majority of overhead is primarily fire and AD's anyways. Plus with the CIMT stuff taking over their rosters are much smaller than the type 1's & 2's and expand with phone calls to fire bros to help out. To anyone that wants to listen, don't get emotional, be tactical. Recognize what you can control and what you can't. For the boots on the ground like myself. Stay in touch with your seasonals coming on, get your critical 80 dialed in, organize your PT program, dial in your gear and equipment, get the fire supplies you need, and keep your folks busy. USFS R3
Thank you for this info.
Thanks for your information sharing. I find out Tuesday if I get axed. I'm not in fire anymore, I can retire in 2029 with 30 years at age 57.....so hopefully I keep my job at the BLM until then, I didn't take the fork option.
Hope it works and turns out well for you - Thanks for your work on behalf of our Public Lands.
Chaos, dysfunction and destruction of morale - This is the predictable result of having people who hate "government" and resent civil service put in control of both.
We all recognize the need of reforms and desire more efficiency in our modern systems - In many areas, not just the U.S. Government... But these single minded, often illegal actions, and the wrecking crew approach on display have little or nothing to do with those aims/goals.
Effency ?? - This looks much more about dismantling services and the constructs of collective government to me. - By reducing the abilities of Federal Agencies to perform the work and duties that make it reliable and legitimate to the average citizen - They are enabling the true End Game. Which is concentrating even more power, wealth and control into the hands of the very few.
This is evidenced in the near complete absence or discussion by Mascot Musk concerning "What's Next"... Ruining, dismantling, or wreaking something is always easier then the rebuilding or making something better. The lack of transparency or announced plans about this second half of the equation speaks clearly to the motivations of the actions being witnessed these last several weeks.
Thank you for the work you are doing to keep the information flowing
Elections, meet consequences.
There will be hundreds of fewer FF and overhead personnel available for fire assignments this season becauseoftheRIFs. We were critically short of workers last year. I foresee turn-downs from IMT'S for assignments due to staffing shortfalls
I have yet to hear if ADs are exempt from all this. Some say it's OK. The IMTs may rely more heavily on ADs this season. We'll see.
ADs are the most efficient of all. Essentially contractors. Utilize, send home. No pensions, no healthcare, none of that. Only thing required is admin support to keep them in the system. My forest that's two people, once a year paperwork push.
With all the government waist DOGE is finding you would think they could put it towards government workers. Sounds like you at one point had Elon’s ear 👂 perhaps you could convey this to him. I would hope republicans can grow a spine and stand up for this nonsense. Congress wrote the bills to enact these land management agencies. Musk and Trump should not be allowed to fire them.
“Put the bottle down, get the heart rate up…” Heart rate is essential in overcoming negative coping. Hard times. We gotta get through it together. Thanks Hotshot Wake Up for clear, unbiased information. Thanks firefighters for your clear thinking and strength. We’re gonna need a lot more of it. How do people contact your brother if they want support?
Are dispatchers considered non-fire positions off-season?
Ill have to double check but pretty sure fed dispatchers are primary fire, they have to be fire qualified with some other classes but no pack test requirement. Perms work year round, AD's boost them in the summer. Hope that kinda answers your question. Primary fire is primary fire, time of year doesn't matter. USFS R3
Hate to say it folks, but it’s not a constitutional right to have a job with the federal government
I hate it when management says they can't get rid of someone. That's just poor management. If there's truly an issue, document it, then train/develop/PIP/discipline/terminate as appropriate. Saying there's nothing only option is to put it the performance appraisal is just lazy management. There's a process in place. People in leadership positions that are managers and not leaders are just afraid to be the bearer of bad news or don't want to be the "bad guy". If you want the supervisors pay rate, then you have to do the work, good and bad.
I'm a Captain with the FS in R3. Your right in some of what you say but it's also not that simple, I wish it was. Management doesn't do the legwork, crew supervisors do.Train/develop yes, PIP/discipline, all that stuff has to go through a 3rd party which is ER that guides you, all why trying to run the crew.Termination... management makes the final call and it's harder when their off probation. Is it performance or conduct? Can you measure the performance? Documentation is more than notes on a piece of paper, I think most folks would be surprised. 10% of your employees can take up 90% of your time and that's fact. Crew supervisors have to find the balance to keep the crew functioning by handling issues at the lowest level. Aglearn doesn't teach you these small things as a new supervisor, you end up learning the hard way. And believe me we have a lot of new supervisors in R3. And yes if experienced supervisors aren't handling poor performance or conduct they are not doing their job. I just want to share knowledge because I think there are some non fire folks that read these threads and articles.
New subscriber here (ish) thanks for all you do. Can I read the article instead of listening? Sorry for a likely stupid Q…
Should be able to hit the transcript tab and you'll be good to go.
Thanks vm
In the Armed forces, during the numerous post-war draw downs, it's called "RIF." IE: "You got "Rif'd." This is old lore in the armed forces, and no, there wasn't careful consideration, they got hundreds of thousands off the books because massive budget cuts were incoming...whack, just like that.
If you had friends, they would find you a place to hide out. (ROTC was a big one) But those billets were few.
At the root of this is the $32 TRILLION debt bomb ticking, and 20 something nations signing up to abandon the petro-dollar via BRICS.....that's a civilization killer. The 90s and the 2000s there were plenty of examples. Some of those nations that experienced default are only now coming out of it, some never really will in our lifetime.
You can't imagine the deadly shit show that that brings unless you've seen it first hand...deadly. So yea, strategically there's a a fire in the paint locker and it's general quarters time in the strategic finance dept.
Americans living didn't experience anything like that, nor did they notice because it wasn't part of their reality.
Well, welcome to reality. It sucks, and lots of people we love and care about are getting hit. But there it is.
And yes, there's going to be some chaos that goes with it, but what major shift hasn't involved that?
What we are seeing currently is about REDIRECTING spending - Not REDUCING it. The US debt is projected to grow once again in 2025. And each year through at least 2035. Both overall debt, debt held by the public, and as a % of GDP.
The "savings" from gutting the federal workforce and eliminating agencies, services, reducing 'fraud" and gaining "efficiency" is all slated to go elsewhere in the proposed budget due in March.... Tax Breaks (a huge percentage to the wealthy and large corporations) - mass deportation efforts - private prisons - the national security state and a shift to contacts that privatize federal services for profit.
The priorities being set are a legitimate debate - but the Intent of "DOGE" actions are pretty clear.
Here's a clue. Elon Musk's personal wealth has increased by $115 BILLION DOLLARS since election day. And you can bet the $400,000,000 Million dollar contact recently made final by the State Dept for Tesla armored trucks WILL NOT be part of ANY audit. (except to scrub the names from the contract, which has already happened)
Well, they better get you in there asap to get all this sorted.
Good quip and point taken - there are enough numb-skills running the show without adding me. didn't mean to sound holy/holy....Besides, I'm busy helping friends trying to understand if they have a job or not from week to week - so I'm booked full time.
I'm with you. This was fast, furious, and unsettling, especially in agencies not accustomed to the harsh world of corporate where this is the norm.
It's been a rough couple weeks.
Thank you Mr Hotshot. Appreciate your reports!
🙏