Weekly Update: Overreaction in Oregon? Burn Boss Arrested After Prescribed Burn Jumps Onto Private Ranch Land. I Discuss What is Known and the Future Repercussions. Operational Update, and More.
Weekly Update: Overreaction in Oregon? Burn Boss Arrested After Prescribed Burn Jumps Onto Private Ranch Land. I Discuss What is Known and the Future Repercussions. Operational Update, and More.
First of all, thanks very much for your reporting on this incident. Maybe the only way to learn something from this is to try to envision it from all sides. Having been in similar situations here in R3, (both as a rancher and now as a agency admin) I think you probably hit it on the head. It’ll be interesting to see whether or not they were in prescription. If they were burning on the upper end of their prescription in that particular area with the history involved, I would hope there had been a lot of discussion with partners and neighbors prior to ignition. Getting ahead of those public interactions is key to taking the heat(no pun intended) off the implementers on the ground.
According to the WA Post: " The sheriff’s office in Grant County, Ore., on Wednesday arrested Rick Snodgrass, a 39-year-old Forest Service employee for “reckless burning,” after a prescribed fire in the Malheur National Forest burned onto the Hollidays’ ranch." Several sources quoted FS spokesperson that Snodgrass "was conducting an approved prescribed burn". I worked and fought fires on the Malheur for ten years and it's no secret that citizens, Grant county, and sheriffs office have historic grievances with several federal agencies dominant in the area. As far as I understand, no FS employee has ever been arrested in the performance of official/approved fire duties. I believe the arrest was political and not justified. This incident will casts a long shadow over future prescribed fire operations even if no charges are filed.
I really like the way you presented this situation. There really are multiple sides to this story and plenty of rumors flying around. It is refreshing to read and listen to an unbiased perspective that is not trying to jump to fast and controversial conclusions and instead is willing to wait until the facts come out. I agree that this incident is going to have a major impact on prescribed fire in the future. It will be very interesting to see how it unfolds.
Well this is interesting. I grew up in Montana on a ranch where we weren’t big fans of the forest service because we didn’t fully understand the entire scope of the forest service and their mission or what they can and can’t do. Further, I am a former police officer, and now wildland firefighter, and this year will be my rookie year as a hotshot.
With that being said, I really feel like this was handled really tactfully but the sherif ‘s office.
First, firefighters are now on private land, taking care of a slip or not, they are. Ranchers have the right to be armed, so does anyone else.
Second, we know this area has historically been anti big government, anti forest service, and anti police/ sheriff. Now as a police officer to me it’s clear as day here to solve this issue without it blowing up into Bundy ranch again. I can arrest this employee (which does not mean charged with a crime) and remove them from the property, allowing cooler heads to prevail, while allowing the ranch owners to feel seen and heard, and preventing another uproar. Far easier to make USFS burn boss the figurative scapegoat for the whole mess then to arrest a land owner on his own land, especially because he wouldn’t be there *but for* the forest service mucked up the burn.
Third, arrest doesn’t mean charged, you can arrest to solve a problem, and then forward the report to the DA or prosecutors office for review, and allow the people who went to law school to address this situation more in depth. Now with that said, you can’t just arrest in a high profile thing like this, that I am sure these deputies are aware of intimately.
They crossed their t’s and dotted their i’s and if they felt they had probable cause to arrest for reckless burning...... then I’d argue it probably was reckless.
Now, on behalf of the forest service, seeing anyone angry with a gun is threatening. Wether spoken or not. This is a very complex catch 22 because the forest service employees/ firefighters don’t have a duty to protect anyone person individually much like police officers, they have a duty to protect the public and it’s lands at large. Which enters a bit of a grey area I think, which is if we are on private property, fighting a slip we caused, and we feel threatened, what’s the criminality behind just leaving? Especially if we’re threatened with violence?
Could we deescalate by just leaving? And allowing the rancher to take care of his own land?
Something that I have begun on substack is FireBridge. Outside of my own website, however, im not quite sure on this post i'm making right now because I do not want to encroach on the Hotshot wakeup here yet given what is going on I think it is time to introduce a "thought" for us and i think the issues come down to simple and fundamental training. But again, not just more of the same, a different and very specialized form. Starting with the intro of Sun Tzu and the Art of War, Wildland style. If there was an email address or a way to contact this groups owner I would have done so first. yet there is no way to do so to inquire first. so here goes.
Sun Tzu’s “The Art of War” is a very fascinating read. I have known folks that have tried reading the book only to come to hate it as they claim it makes zero sense. I suppose, for them, that would be true if you (they) are limited in your (their) critical thinking capacity.
.
The Art of War philosophy is one that can be adapted directly to the warfare of fighting wildland fires. We see by Sun Tzu’s examples of how we continuously lose this battle each and every year on major campaigns that last for months only to die out when as Sun Tzu would say that every competitive situation depends upon the unique relative position of the competitor within the larger competitive environment.
.
The key for us is Environment & In this case, Fire is our competitor.
.
The only significant difference is that there are no five flaws of a commander to exploit. We only have under Sun Tzu’s description of war with such a foe is Tian, Di, Tao, and Fa. Those are The weather or climate (tian) and the Di (earth, ground) which is how Sun Tzu describes where we fight and what we fight over. Then we have the Fa which are the methods. Di, in other words it is the territory in which the battle is taking place. So how many times do we wage battle against a fire in un favorable conditions? How often does this cost us? How often does this slow us down to the point that movement becomes less coordinated for us, more costly, unable to hold less and less ground? In this case, if you understand Sun Tzu, putting those together you have the ability to understand that the time and place can be better chosen by you. Tian Di. Think of Fire Weather as a cycle that changes over time, this is the Tian portion. The Di or earth portion is where you want to see where the battle can be waged in your favor! Tian Di together is now the time and location of the event. (added : Fire must have oxygen to survive as humans, therefor you can kill it).
.
Carrying this over to wildland fire, you can have a favorable climate, but not favorable ground, you can have favorable ground but not a favorable climate, or you can have favorable ground and climate but not time. Using Sun Tzu’s principles the only way to have all three is to understand the competitive environment to which the foe acts and force him to come to you on your terms so that you have all three. It is knowledge that allows perspective and this allows one to Foresee. The ability to foresee allows better movement and leads to better positioning.
.
The purpose of Sun Tzu’s philosophies is that you want to seek positions that are so powerful that no one challenges them. A bit different in fire fighting, however, you could equate this to seeking a position of advantage to where it is exceptionally difficult for the fire to continue its advance, loses in intensity or both.
.
Sun Tzu also says that fighting opponents openly is usually the failure of strategy. Openly in this case does not mean in open space. It would mean openly engaging in a position that is more of a strategic advantage & benefit to the Fire and not YOU.
.
Sun Tzu also states, and is probably one of the more important elements, that success does not go to or belong to the strongest or most aggressive; rather to those that best understand their situation and what their alternatives are! As an example of this tao, many times when I teach hydraulics I speak to students of designing a hose lay that does not simply get “some” water to your location, I say to base it off of the tactical objectives. This is a requirement of every action in the IRPG. Yet it is the most often violated and broken rule in the IRPG (#3) when it relates to hydraulics and engine use. Many have miss-understood the teachings of hydraulics when it is said a hydraulic operation, for example, will fail
You (subjectively) have a fire producing 2,700 Btu per square foot, and moving at 1.4 feet per second, this is generating 3,960Btu every second. Your competitive environment is allowing this fire to have a fire line length of 1,500 feet. The Btu being generated is 5,941,350 Btu every second. Since having no knowledge of this because the Tao (fire- fighting philosophy) you have is flawed because the knowledge of hydraulics (in this case) is deemed un-important, you continue to string out 20,000 feet of a hose-lay that is only going to be getting “some” water to your area. Thinking 20,000 feet of hose, with a 1” nozzle at the end of a type 3 producing around 350Psi, you think you have just proven someone wrong and that you can in fact get water. You obtain 19gpm on level ground near the engine. (you have 500 feet of terrain to fight, so your gpm further diminishes over distance, it is now at 7gpm by the time it arrives at the nozzle). However, you do not KNOW this as your pump panel is still showing 350psi. The folks at the nozzle say they have water. That 7gpm is only able to absorb 7 x 8.34lb/gal = 58.38lbs, 58.38 x 1,123btu/lb = 65,560Btu per minute. The fire is producing over 5 million every second! Once you begin to open more nozzles you lose more water, because your secondary Tao on the use of hydraulics is flawed as well. It is again one thing to be able to string hose for miles thinking falsely to yourself you did the impossible regarding the previous hydraulics instruction, It is yet quite another to pump them to the demand required by the competitor! The Tao under Sun Tzu is the foundation to success ONLY if it is based on the knowledge of all factors involved for the battle to which you are about to engage. That is knowledge of yourself, your abilities, the environment, the fuels, the competitor, the tools, the soldiers, etc etc. If you miss anyone of the elements involved in a battle you are making un-informed decisions and un-informed decisions will cost you time and position or possibly lives. We make the same mistakes with aircraft as well.
This would require 634gps. Not 7gpm! However, there is a method to allow for this to be tackled but that is not the purpose of this writing. (see FireBridge).
.
I personally see a lot of strategy that can be changed and it would be much simpler than going after a real live opponent as well as easier because we are dealing with a completely predictable enemy, we not only know ourselves but we know the enemy, we know what it needs and we know how to starve it.
.
However, Sun Tzu says that movement demands proper timing and with that, Sun Tzu says to avoid un-necessary conflict. How much of this have we engaged in over the years? There are mental skills and material skills.
.
Fa, in Sun Tzu’s philosophy is the laws or methods. They are the rules, organization and systems that define an organization and its techniques for operation. If we are so rigid in a system and law that never allows for change or adaptability to meet an opponent, then we can never truly be expected to win. Methods are the result of a leader’s decision, which, are based on their Tao, which is from their knowledge of something FIRST. Allowing one self to become concerned with only one element of a competitor (Fire) to which they are about to engage in battle with will cost them dearly if they do not know how to engage all elements of them. If you regard an element as being un-important and fail to educate yourself of such, then you do not regard it, when you do not regard it, your tactical decisions do not account for this and then only partial information is being used to formulate and base your decisions on. History in fire has proven this will cost you.
.
Tao, or philosophy, is the idea around which a specific strategic position is organized. The philosophy also provides the focus, or completeness. Hence, this philosophy holds the organization together.
.
Knowledge is the most important skill under Sun Tzu’s philosophy, from it, all other skills are developed and the most critical. If your knowledge is incomplete, either by choice or circumstance, then you will have a flawed Tao(philosophy or ideal), and therefore your Fa, (methods) will flawed, forcing you to have or seek unfavorable Di (positions, territory), that leads ultimately to your failure on the battle field.
History has proven that all who engage in battle and do not take heed to Sun Tzu’s principles…FAIL.
I am a land owner in CO & SD. I have NEVER expected USA GOVERNMENT to fight fire on my land because...it is MY land.
Personally, again, as a land owner, I think that the US Fire Service should be FOR HIRE. I am sick of people who are anti USA Gov. YET THEY BENEFIT from those tax payer funded laborers. I believe that Wildfire Fighters /Hot Shots should be for hire for land owners agriculture or residential. If Land Owners want to manage their own lands INCLUDING FIRE MITIGATION & CONTROL, they should have the right to do it on their own. If Land Owners want help to mitigate and control fire, I believe land ownere should pay yearly for fire mitigation and control as part of their yearly property taxes.
I have stated in another post that we do not train folks about fuel btu loading and heat absorption capacity of what our nozzles can absorb. Knowing this is critical when planning for rx’s as well as suppression ops. S490 is great but it falls short on bridging the gap on just how fire intensity(btu/s/ft) play into determining resources required and even rothermels 1970’s publication’s do not state how to determine resources required based on fire btu.
FireBridge is the mathematical bridge between plans and ops and while the arrest may very well be a simple over reaction it still begs the question of how an 18 acre escape happened?
My comment over chief moores recommendations on prescribed burns etc lays out an example two days before this incident. More training isn’t necessarily the answer. It is the type of training we do in fed svc that matters.
forgot: one of the items mentioned in the report on wildfiretoday was the temps, at 73deg and FM 16%. many do not consider that the fuel temp is radically different than the ambient. This is why we get sunburns so easily as well. Solar infrared radiation (not intending to insult anyone here, but we do tend to overlook it all the time).
First of all, thanks very much for your reporting on this incident. Maybe the only way to learn something from this is to try to envision it from all sides. Having been in similar situations here in R3, (both as a rancher and now as a agency admin) I think you probably hit it on the head. It’ll be interesting to see whether or not they were in prescription. If they were burning on the upper end of their prescription in that particular area with the history involved, I would hope there had been a lot of discussion with partners and neighbors prior to ignition. Getting ahead of those public interactions is key to taking the heat(no pun intended) off the implementers on the ground.
According to the WA Post: " The sheriff’s office in Grant County, Ore., on Wednesday arrested Rick Snodgrass, a 39-year-old Forest Service employee for “reckless burning,” after a prescribed fire in the Malheur National Forest burned onto the Hollidays’ ranch." Several sources quoted FS spokesperson that Snodgrass "was conducting an approved prescribed burn". I worked and fought fires on the Malheur for ten years and it's no secret that citizens, Grant county, and sheriffs office have historic grievances with several federal agencies dominant in the area. As far as I understand, no FS employee has ever been arrested in the performance of official/approved fire duties. I believe the arrest was political and not justified. This incident will casts a long shadow over future prescribed fire operations even if no charges are filed.
I really like the way you presented this situation. There really are multiple sides to this story and plenty of rumors flying around. It is refreshing to read and listen to an unbiased perspective that is not trying to jump to fast and controversial conclusions and instead is willing to wait until the facts come out. I agree that this incident is going to have a major impact on prescribed fire in the future. It will be very interesting to see how it unfolds.
Well this is interesting. I grew up in Montana on a ranch where we weren’t big fans of the forest service because we didn’t fully understand the entire scope of the forest service and their mission or what they can and can’t do. Further, I am a former police officer, and now wildland firefighter, and this year will be my rookie year as a hotshot.
With that being said, I really feel like this was handled really tactfully but the sherif ‘s office.
First, firefighters are now on private land, taking care of a slip or not, they are. Ranchers have the right to be armed, so does anyone else.
Second, we know this area has historically been anti big government, anti forest service, and anti police/ sheriff. Now as a police officer to me it’s clear as day here to solve this issue without it blowing up into Bundy ranch again. I can arrest this employee (which does not mean charged with a crime) and remove them from the property, allowing cooler heads to prevail, while allowing the ranch owners to feel seen and heard, and preventing another uproar. Far easier to make USFS burn boss the figurative scapegoat for the whole mess then to arrest a land owner on his own land, especially because he wouldn’t be there *but for* the forest service mucked up the burn.
Third, arrest doesn’t mean charged, you can arrest to solve a problem, and then forward the report to the DA or prosecutors office for review, and allow the people who went to law school to address this situation more in depth. Now with that said, you can’t just arrest in a high profile thing like this, that I am sure these deputies are aware of intimately.
They crossed their t’s and dotted their i’s and if they felt they had probable cause to arrest for reckless burning...... then I’d argue it probably was reckless.
Now, on behalf of the forest service, seeing anyone angry with a gun is threatening. Wether spoken or not. This is a very complex catch 22 because the forest service employees/ firefighters don’t have a duty to protect anyone person individually much like police officers, they have a duty to protect the public and it’s lands at large. Which enters a bit of a grey area I think, which is if we are on private property, fighting a slip we caused, and we feel threatened, what’s the criminality behind just leaving? Especially if we’re threatened with violence?
Could we deescalate by just leaving? And allowing the rancher to take care of his own land?
Great podcast this morning as always.
Something that I have begun on substack is FireBridge. Outside of my own website, however, im not quite sure on this post i'm making right now because I do not want to encroach on the Hotshot wakeup here yet given what is going on I think it is time to introduce a "thought" for us and i think the issues come down to simple and fundamental training. But again, not just more of the same, a different and very specialized form. Starting with the intro of Sun Tzu and the Art of War, Wildland style. If there was an email address or a way to contact this groups owner I would have done so first. yet there is no way to do so to inquire first. so here goes.
https://firebridge.substack.com/p/sun-tzu-art-of-war-and-wildfire
The main post is here:
Art of War – Wildland Fire
(Pdf copy on www.wildfireengineer.com).
Sun Tzu’s “The Art of War” is a very fascinating read. I have known folks that have tried reading the book only to come to hate it as they claim it makes zero sense. I suppose, for them, that would be true if you (they) are limited in your (their) critical thinking capacity.
.
The Art of War philosophy is one that can be adapted directly to the warfare of fighting wildland fires. We see by Sun Tzu’s examples of how we continuously lose this battle each and every year on major campaigns that last for months only to die out when as Sun Tzu would say that every competitive situation depends upon the unique relative position of the competitor within the larger competitive environment.
.
The key for us is Environment & In this case, Fire is our competitor.
.
The only significant difference is that there are no five flaws of a commander to exploit. We only have under Sun Tzu’s description of war with such a foe is Tian, Di, Tao, and Fa. Those are The weather or climate (tian) and the Di (earth, ground) which is how Sun Tzu describes where we fight and what we fight over. Then we have the Fa which are the methods. Di, in other words it is the territory in which the battle is taking place. So how many times do we wage battle against a fire in un favorable conditions? How often does this cost us? How often does this slow us down to the point that movement becomes less coordinated for us, more costly, unable to hold less and less ground? In this case, if you understand Sun Tzu, putting those together you have the ability to understand that the time and place can be better chosen by you. Tian Di. Think of Fire Weather as a cycle that changes over time, this is the Tian portion. The Di or earth portion is where you want to see where the battle can be waged in your favor! Tian Di together is now the time and location of the event. (added : Fire must have oxygen to survive as humans, therefor you can kill it).
.
Carrying this over to wildland fire, you can have a favorable climate, but not favorable ground, you can have favorable ground but not a favorable climate, or you can have favorable ground and climate but not time. Using Sun Tzu’s principles the only way to have all three is to understand the competitive environment to which the foe acts and force him to come to you on your terms so that you have all three. It is knowledge that allows perspective and this allows one to Foresee. The ability to foresee allows better movement and leads to better positioning.
.
The purpose of Sun Tzu’s philosophies is that you want to seek positions that are so powerful that no one challenges them. A bit different in fire fighting, however, you could equate this to seeking a position of advantage to where it is exceptionally difficult for the fire to continue its advance, loses in intensity or both.
.
Sun Tzu also says that fighting opponents openly is usually the failure of strategy. Openly in this case does not mean in open space. It would mean openly engaging in a position that is more of a strategic advantage & benefit to the Fire and not YOU.
.
Sun Tzu also states, and is probably one of the more important elements, that success does not go to or belong to the strongest or most aggressive; rather to those that best understand their situation and what their alternatives are! As an example of this tao, many times when I teach hydraulics I speak to students of designing a hose lay that does not simply get “some” water to your location, I say to base it off of the tactical objectives. This is a requirement of every action in the IRPG. Yet it is the most often violated and broken rule in the IRPG (#3) when it relates to hydraulics and engine use. Many have miss-understood the teachings of hydraulics when it is said a hydraulic operation, for example, will fail
You (subjectively) have a fire producing 2,700 Btu per square foot, and moving at 1.4 feet per second, this is generating 3,960Btu every second. Your competitive environment is allowing this fire to have a fire line length of 1,500 feet. The Btu being generated is 5,941,350 Btu every second. Since having no knowledge of this because the Tao (fire- fighting philosophy) you have is flawed because the knowledge of hydraulics (in this case) is deemed un-important, you continue to string out 20,000 feet of a hose-lay that is only going to be getting “some” water to your area. Thinking 20,000 feet of hose, with a 1” nozzle at the end of a type 3 producing around 350Psi, you think you have just proven someone wrong and that you can in fact get water. You obtain 19gpm on level ground near the engine. (you have 500 feet of terrain to fight, so your gpm further diminishes over distance, it is now at 7gpm by the time it arrives at the nozzle). However, you do not KNOW this as your pump panel is still showing 350psi. The folks at the nozzle say they have water. That 7gpm is only able to absorb 7 x 8.34lb/gal = 58.38lbs, 58.38 x 1,123btu/lb = 65,560Btu per minute. The fire is producing over 5 million every second! Once you begin to open more nozzles you lose more water, because your secondary Tao on the use of hydraulics is flawed as well. It is again one thing to be able to string hose for miles thinking falsely to yourself you did the impossible regarding the previous hydraulics instruction, It is yet quite another to pump them to the demand required by the competitor! The Tao under Sun Tzu is the foundation to success ONLY if it is based on the knowledge of all factors involved for the battle to which you are about to engage. That is knowledge of yourself, your abilities, the environment, the fuels, the competitor, the tools, the soldiers, etc etc. If you miss anyone of the elements involved in a battle you are making un-informed decisions and un-informed decisions will cost you time and position or possibly lives. We make the same mistakes with aircraft as well.
This would require 634gps. Not 7gpm! However, there is a method to allow for this to be tackled but that is not the purpose of this writing. (see FireBridge).
.
I personally see a lot of strategy that can be changed and it would be much simpler than going after a real live opponent as well as easier because we are dealing with a completely predictable enemy, we not only know ourselves but we know the enemy, we know what it needs and we know how to starve it.
.
However, Sun Tzu says that movement demands proper timing and with that, Sun Tzu says to avoid un-necessary conflict. How much of this have we engaged in over the years? There are mental skills and material skills.
.
Fa, in Sun Tzu’s philosophy is the laws or methods. They are the rules, organization and systems that define an organization and its techniques for operation. If we are so rigid in a system and law that never allows for change or adaptability to meet an opponent, then we can never truly be expected to win. Methods are the result of a leader’s decision, which, are based on their Tao, which is from their knowledge of something FIRST. Allowing one self to become concerned with only one element of a competitor (Fire) to which they are about to engage in battle with will cost them dearly if they do not know how to engage all elements of them. If you regard an element as being un-important and fail to educate yourself of such, then you do not regard it, when you do not regard it, your tactical decisions do not account for this and then only partial information is being used to formulate and base your decisions on. History in fire has proven this will cost you.
.
Tao, or philosophy, is the idea around which a specific strategic position is organized. The philosophy also provides the focus, or completeness. Hence, this philosophy holds the organization together.
.
Knowledge is the most important skill under Sun Tzu’s philosophy, from it, all other skills are developed and the most critical. If your knowledge is incomplete, either by choice or circumstance, then you will have a flawed Tao(philosophy or ideal), and therefore your Fa, (methods) will flawed, forcing you to have or seek unfavorable Di (positions, territory), that leads ultimately to your failure on the battle field.
History has proven that all who engage in battle and do not take heed to Sun Tzu’s principles…FAIL.
Joseph Moylan
I am a land owner in CO & SD. I have NEVER expected USA GOVERNMENT to fight fire on my land because...it is MY land.
Personally, again, as a land owner, I think that the US Fire Service should be FOR HIRE. I am sick of people who are anti USA Gov. YET THEY BENEFIT from those tax payer funded laborers. I believe that Wildfire Fighters /Hot Shots should be for hire for land owners agriculture or residential. If Land Owners want to manage their own lands INCLUDING FIRE MITIGATION & CONTROL, they should have the right to do it on their own. If Land Owners want help to mitigate and control fire, I believe land ownere should pay yearly for fire mitigation and control as part of their yearly property taxes.
Glenn Palmer is Oregon's most famous constitutional sheriff and has been in office since 2000, nuff sed!!
I have stated in another post that we do not train folks about fuel btu loading and heat absorption capacity of what our nozzles can absorb. Knowing this is critical when planning for rx’s as well as suppression ops. S490 is great but it falls short on bridging the gap on just how fire intensity(btu/s/ft) play into determining resources required and even rothermels 1970’s publication’s do not state how to determine resources required based on fire btu.
FireBridge is the mathematical bridge between plans and ops and while the arrest may very well be a simple over reaction it still begs the question of how an 18 acre escape happened?
My comment over chief moores recommendations on prescribed burns etc lays out an example two days before this incident. More training isn’t necessarily the answer. It is the type of training we do in fed svc that matters.
forgot: one of the items mentioned in the report on wildfiretoday was the temps, at 73deg and FM 16%. many do not consider that the fuel temp is radically different than the ambient. This is why we get sunburns so easily as well. Solar infrared radiation (not intending to insult anyone here, but we do tend to overlook it all the time).